I'm reading essentially two different points of view concerning the Israeli war with Hamas in the Gaza.
What I'm seeing is that extremely reasonable and intelligent people support either position and then defend their position with appropriate information.
The positions are the attack is justified versus the attacks are not justified because they place too many people in harms way.
We know these two positions and we know how our view of either one becomes more and more solidified over time. Once we establish a position, we place our entirety behind it. This is the way things work. We like to be right and we like to have clear justification for our position.
What we essentially have here are two positions that can't seem to be reconciled, right. Hamas lobbing missiles into Israel is wrong and Israel needs to defend itself appropriately. Also through the act of defending itself, Israel is enacting a significantly greater toll on innocent Palestinians, and no matter what, this is simply not good and in the long run probably does not stop future attacks.
So we are caught in this intractable situation where we have to defend our position and its emotional, its salient, its highly important to us.
Where is there some resolution.
Clearly Israel needs to defend itself from attack, this is fundamental, unquestionable. So then we get into the method that Israel uses to defend itself. Can we be critical of Israel's intensity in leveling parts of the Gaza - yes, of course we can.
We need to remove our inability to not see the equal right of all parties to exist. Now we come up with well Hamas does not want Israel to exist and then retreat into our position again. So look at history, and look to see if there were any other situations where this type of unyielding position exhausted itself over time.
We know what happens in war. You get some crazy people in there and their basic sadistic nature turns the thing into a bloodbath. Its brutal, its not human behavior. Is any military exempt from this - get real.
So I still maintain this position. Israel needs to stop Hamas missile attacks yet they need to be more precise and selective about how they intervene and remove this threat.
In the meanwhile, this position, is moot. Its not changing anything. The outcome continues along a very harsh line. Ask yourself this question, will the missile attacks cease once the Israeli operation ceases.
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Here's the Perspective of an Israeli writer and old friend of mine. He just sent this to me.
THE PALESTINIAN WAY TO FIGHT by Steve Kramer
You’ve got to hand it to the Palestinians. They’ve come up with a way to win all their battles with Israel. It’s easy. The fighters simply imbed themselves within the civilian community (or an area that poses as a civilian enclave). They can then stash their weapons and ammunition nearby, in mosques, schools, or hospitals, and wait for the right moment. When the appropriate time arrives, the fighters shoot off rockets and then hide among the civilian population.
What then? Israel either absorbs the blows or retaliates. If Israel does nothing, or next to nothing, as it has for the last eight years, the world barely acknowledges that the Palestinians have been attacking her relentlessly. If the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) reacts strongly to the attack, it must take care not to get confused between the fighters and the civilians. The fact that the fighters may have changed into civilian clothing (or never have worn a uniform) is irrelevant. Israel must not retaliate disproportionately! What does this mean?
There are at least two definitions of “disproportionate response”. Many people seem to believe that fighting back and winning through superior force is “disproportionate”. In this case, that means that the IDF mustn’t use airplanes, helicopters, or ships because the Palestinians didn’t use them. The IDF also mustn’t use tanks, artillery, or other advanced weaponry because the Palestinians don’t have them. In addition, the IDF mustn’t attack the neighborhoods where the fighters emerge from and hide in, because “civilians” could become casualties. Israel must supply the civilians with fuel, electricity, food, medical supplies, etc. Also, since war is messy and inconvenient for the civilians, there has to be an interruption in fighting each day so that the Palestinians can procure all the supplies available to them and arrange themselves more comfortably. Ambulances, schools, and mosques mustn’t be targeted because they are “civilian”, and couldn’t possibly be utilized by the fighters to store war materiel.
What country can defend itself when shackled by the above definition of disproportionate response? During WWII, if the Allies had been subjected to the strictures applied to Israel, German cities wouldn’t have come under severe attack and Dresden would not have been destroyed … . Germany would have held out much longer, causing more Allied deaths. Japan would have fought for an additional year or more, causing perhaps a million additional American casualties, because the US wouldn’t have dared to use an atomic bomb against them.
Israel, in the Second Lebanon War of 2006, refrained from carpet bombing Lebanon’s southern sector due to international pressure. The result is that Hezbollah has rearmed itself with three times more missiles than they had before the war. Again abiding by this skewed definition of disproportionate response, Israel is being prevented from devastating Hamas. In the international media, Israel is (as usual) the world’s whipping boy for daring to defend itself against the “poor Palestinians”. Hamas is nearly invincible because it can’t be wiped out without devastating the people who voted for it, sustain it, and supply its manpower. By attempting to limit Israel’s self-defense by yelling, “disproportionate response!” the Palestinians try to avoid the consequences their support of terror invites.
But there’s a different definition of disproportionate response that does allow countries to defend their citizens. That definition compares using missiles that are aimed to minimize civilian casualties (Israel’s), to the Palestinian rockets that are aimed to maximize civilian casualties. It compares very limited and targeted attacks against Palestinian fighters, with attacks against Israeli cities, including houses, synagogues, nursing homes, and schools. It compares the intent of the IDF to limit civilian casualties, to the Palestinian attempt to maximize Israeli casualties, civilian as well as military. Utilizing this definition of disproportionate response, the Palestinians are revealed as the ones who deserve censure, because they violate all rules of civilized warfare by knowingly making their citizenry human shields. Hamas is quick to shoot rockets into Israel, inviting retaliation, but it provides the Gazans no protection against Israel’s inevitable response. Instead, Hamas leaders hide in the tunnels that they’ve constructed, or in hospitals among the inevitable casualties, not to mention Hamas commandeering the aid that Israel allows to enter Gaza. In contrast, Israel has a policy of mandatory bomb shelters / air-tight rooms to help safeguard its population.
There are international standards and conventions which should condone Israel’s behavior and put the onus on Hamas for causing the woeful state of affairs in Gaza. But for the sake of political correctness and anti-Zionism/Semitism, the tables are turned and Israel is the villain. Never mind – we will do what we have to do and damn the comments from those who prefer that we’d disappear. As a matter of fact, wars aren’t won by armies striving to be “proportionate”. (Our enemies know this and act accordingly.) The winners are the ones who are stronger and use their strength to prevail. To hold back for the purpose of pleasing the world community is plainly suicidal.
Against this background, we have moronic comments from “celebrity” pinheads like Roseanne Barr, a Jew. She has labeled Israel a "Nazi state" on her personal blog. In addition, she had planned to travel to Gaza with pro-Palestinian activists on a protest boat sailing from Cyprus to Gaza, but the boat was turned back by the Israeli navy. Barr also condemned Israel's counter-terror operation against Hamas, asserting that, "The destruction of the Jews in Israel has been assured with this inhuman attack on civilians in Gaza." To top it off, Barr likened Hamas to "street gangs" in the Los Angeles neighborhood of Watts and said that Israel's military campaign is "equivalent to Los Angeles attacking and launching war on the people of Watts to kill 'the Bloods' and 'the Crips.'"
How many Israeli civilians must die for people like Roseanne Barr and institutions like the United Nations to legitimize Israel’s retaliation after an onslaught of 6,500 rockets, all of them shot into Israel with the intent of terrorizing civilians during an eight-year period? (15 rockets per week, on average!) Are people around the world to surrender to terror because terrorists use their own population as human shields? In that case, the Bloods and the Crips could just take over LA and terrorists in Mexico could rocket San Diego with impunity.
The Roseannes of this world are lucky they aren’t living in Sderot, which is now joined by Beersheba, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Yavne, and other locations in Israel which are being targeted by Hamas rockets. Then Roseanne might be shell-shocked (PTSD), wetting her bed at night, or perhaps wounded or dead. Roseanne and her ilk must wake up and recognize that the Islamists are coming for them IF they can finish Israel off. We Israelis aren’t asking for anyone else to fight our battles. We can do quite well on our own, despite the myopic Roseannes of the world.
Roseanne is a little too over the top for me as well. I don't think she gets a whole lot of traction. She simply has the means and power to be visible. Coulter is visible in the same way but we can shut the TV off. Roseanne also lacks political nuance.
I don't know what the answer is here. I read different blogs and different camps about this war and it seems to me that there basically these two positions that I outlined.
From the point of view of his argument, its a fair argument. Certainly if your town or city was being barraged with missiles we would be freaked. I think anyone can understand this point.
I would disagree with his idea on overwhelming force and in particular his examples.
Some historians and I would include Howard Zinn would suggest that Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were unnecessary bombings. Japan was ready to capitulate, they were completely on the ropes before the A bombs. Personally I think dropping those bombs was an unprecedented inhuman monstrosity.
I see the Israelis as perhaps some of the most resourceful and intelligent people ever. They completely have to means to pick apart Hamas in any way that they choose.
I wish I was optimistic about Israel's ability to take apart Hamas. The problem here isn't military prowess it's will. I'm not sure Israel can hold out forever against a foe that is willing to sacrifice it's own children as human bombs? @ what pt. does the hatred on that side become so deep that it uses WMD? This is what I truly fear. Then what are the options? We don't even live anywhere near these fanatics and 8 yrs. ago they still murdered almost 3K of us for what?
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